[tlhIngan Hol] Type 9-ed verb as SAO

jevreH jevreH at qeylIS.net
Sun Dec 1 06:27:52 PST 2019


While I follow your reasoning about “SAO”, unfortunately, oftentimes we see terms created that aren’t all-encompassing, but simply define the typical use cases.

For instance, if I said that we can’t use -vaD for IO’s that to not gain a positive outcome from the verb, you’d roll you eyes and tell me I’m wrong; and yet we say that -vaD marks the “beneficiary” of the verb, and the strict definition of a “beneficiary” is someone who benefits (from the Latin beneficiarius — one who enjoys favour).

So… yes, we say “sentence as object”, and most of the use cases are sentences; but that doesn’t exclude an expanded definition of the technical use of the term that means something different than it’s apparent meaning.

—jevreH

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> On Nov 30, 2019, at 23:39, Will Martin <willmartin2 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> SAO stands for “Sentence As Object”.
> 
> Your examples use verbs with Type 9 suffix. These are not sentences. They are dependent clauses; sentence fragments.
> 
> Most of the time, your translations include self-invented, unstated echoes of the verb, as if it had been stated, but Klingon grammar doesn’t work like that.
> 
> Your first example, for example, {bIpawDI’ ‘e’ lutu’} supposedly means “When you arrive they will notice that you arrive.” So, where, in the Klingon sentence, is the word you have translated into the second “you arrive”? It’s not in the Klingon. It’s only in the English. Your English translation pretends that it was stated in the Klingon. It wasn’t.
> 
> Your last example does make sense, though, because {bImob} is a complete sentence, which is represented by {‘e’} in the sentence that follows it: {bIpawDI’ ‘e’ lutu’}.
> 
> Everything else is grammatically wrong.
> 
> And don’t try a Question As Object. Just look in the archives. This one has been argued to death over and over. It doesn’t work. Trust me, and please don’t put us through it again.
> 
> charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
> 
> rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
> 
>> On Nov 30, 2019, at 9:41 PM, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh at qeylIS.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Do we have any canon examples of clauses with verbs taking type-9 suffixes which are then used as the object of another verb? For the purposes of this question, ignore {-bogh}, {-ghach}, and {-wI'}, as those all turn the verb into a noun or make it part of a clause that acts as a noun grammatically.
>> 
>> As an example of what I mean, can any of the sentences mean what the accompanying translations say? (I know all of these sentences could be rewritten to avoid using this construction, the point is to illustrate it in use.)
>> 
>> {bIpawDI' 'e' lutu'} When you arrive they will notice that you arrive
>> {vIje'chugh 'e' vIpay} If I buy it I will regret buying it
>> {Sulengpa' 'e' bonabnIS} Before you travel you need to plan traveling
>> {mayIttaHvIS 'e' wIbuSbe'} While we are walking we don’t focus on us walking
>> {QapmeH 'e' lunIDnIS} In order for them to succeed they need to attempt to succeed
>> {Saghqu'mo' 'e' mevbe'} Because she is very serious she doesn’t stop being serious
>> 
>> I found that verbs with {-'a'} and {-jaj} seemed a bit weirder when acting as SAO, probably because they change the mood:
>> 
>> {DalIjpu''a'? 'e' Datlhoj'a'?} Did you forget it? Did you realize that you forgot it?
>> {malopjaj; 'e' wItIvjaj} May we celebrate; may we enjoy celebrating
>> 
>> Or is it the case that SAO has to have a verb without a type nine suffix? I won’t do this for all of the above examples, but as an example of a type 9-ed verb coming before an SAO pronoun but not being the actual SAO:
>> 
>> {bImob bIpawDI' 'e' lutu'} When you arrive they will notice that you are alone
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