[tlhIngan Hol] Clarification on SIch

[SuStel]

On 4/23/2019 7:57 PM, De'vID wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 15:09, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name 
> <mailto:sustel at trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
>
> > When trying to draw conclusions about what bits of Klingon that 
> appear on Star Trek, we don't get to pick and choose which bits count 
> as canon and which don't.
>
> But don't we? I mean, choosing to treat only what comes from Okrand as 
> canon is still a choice.
>
So is choosing Klingon that appears on a Star Trek show that was written 
by someone who has actually attempted to learn Klingon. So is choosing 
Klingon that only appears in officially licensed Star Trek books. So is 
choosing to add everyone's personal additions to the language to your 
personal dictionary.

There is no naturally-spoken Klingon. There is no native population. So 
we HAVE to choose an approach to what is good Klingon and what isn't. 
It's unavoidable.

The policy of this list is that canon is what Okrand says it is, nothing 
else. (This list's page 
<https://www.kli.org/wiki/tlhIngan-Hol_email_discussion_group> on 
kli.org points to this list's FAQ 
<http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PortalCanon>, which is on Lieven's wiki, 
and it says "The word canon refers to official original sources for 
Klingon words, that is to pronouncements by Marc Okrand, because nobody 
else can create canon.")

The KLI defines canon on its own page <https://www.kli.org/wiki/canon>, 
which says "Canonical tlhIngan Hol: that which is written (or sometimes 
merely spoken) by Marc Okrand." It describes some alternative views, 
such as your own, but the KLI's site itself repeats the quotation on 
Lieven's wiki, and supports the "only Okrand" view.

Now consider Joe Shmoe, who wants to learn Klingon. He discovers there's 
a dictionary, a traveler's language guide, and a book of proverbs. He 
acquires the language tapes. He's feeling pretty good that he's got all 
the learning materials there are. Then he finds out that a bunch of 
people on the Internet are saying that Marc Okrand has spoken to them 
personally and told them the word for /be opposite /is *Dop.* Why should 
he accept that word? Okrand never published it. It has as much 
"canonicity" to Joe as a deleted scene on the cutting-room floor.

Which policy is the correct one? None, objectively. We're talking about 
making silly sounds while pretending to speak the language of an alien 
race. If you're going to play along, you've got to pick one, or no one's 
going to agree on what they're saying. You can't rely on 
natural-language forces, because this isn't a natural language. If you 
had a large enough speaking base and practiced it through generations, 
maybe you could make it "go native," but none of us have that sense of 
rightness or wrongness in Klingon that comes with a native language.

I don't understand the burning desire to proclaim /Discovery/ Klingon as 
canonical. The translators did their best to stick to canonical Klingon, 
so it's not like bringing in /Discovery/ Klingon will usher in fantastic 
new vistas in linguistic understanding. At best it would add additional 
data points in support of the current status quo of understanding of 
canonical Klingon, tautologically.


-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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