[tlhIngan Hol] Expressing "all of us"

Sun Jan 28 04:41:05 PST 2018

Is* HolQeD* 5:2.11 anywhere to be found ?

~ nI'ghma

On Jan 28, 2018 14:12, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> loghaD:
> > «maH Hoch» = all/each of us, without exception (useful for
> > describing unanimous vs. collective decisions and the like)
>
> I was under the impression that using {Hoch} directly after a plural noun,
> meant "all of the.." , being able to convey only a plural meaning.
>
> For example {chabmey Hoch} "all of the pies"; {chabmey Hoch DISopta'} "we
> ate all of the pies".
>
> On the other hand, placing Hoch after a singular noun, means "all of
> the..", expressing a singular meaning. {chab Hoch wISopta'} "we ate all
> of the pie".
>
> The "each" meaning, is expressed only if we place the {Hoch} in front of a
> singular noun. {Hoch chab wISopta'} "we ate each pie".
>
> So, I can't understand how writing {maH Hoch} could mean "each of us".
>
> ~ nI'ghma
>
> On Jan 28, 2018 13:57, "Felix Malmenbeck" <felixm at kth.se> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if «Hoch maH» and «maH Hoch» might be somewhat different.
>>
>> We normally use «X Hoch» for "all X" and «X Hoch» for "the entirety of X".
>> So, I'm thinking:
>>
>> «Hoch maH» = all possible "us"es (if that's a sensible concept); perhaps
>> a particularly large in-group (such referring to a whole species or
>> civilization; "ALL of us are made of starstuff.")
>>
>> «maH Hoch» = all/each of us, without exception (useful for describing
>> unanimous vs. collective decisions and the like)
>>
>> «maH Hoch» is interesting in that it could perhaps be singular, making it
>> unlike «maH» in both person and number.
>>
>> //loghaD
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces at lists.kli.org> on behalf of
>> mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2018 12:49:08 PM
>> *To:* tlhingan-hol at kli.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Expressing "all of us"
>>
>> Thank you all for replying.
>>
>> Reading your replies, I learned something important, something which
>> eluded me so far.
>>
>> I didn't know that in a noun-noun construction, where the second noun is
>> {Hoch} or {HochHom}, that this second noun is the head-noun. All this time
>> I believed, that some special rules apply, with regards to the {Hoch} and
>> {HochHom}. But apparently they don't, so I learned something important,
>> thanks.
>>
>> However, as Rhona Fenwick pointed out, why not use {Hoch maH} ?
>>
>> Even if {maH Hoch} indeed violates the accord rule, the {Hoch maH} evades
>> the accord problem, so everything is ok.
>>
>> So, unless someone disagrees with Rhona, I will be using {Hoch maH},
>> which I like a lot.
>>
>> Thank you QeS, for sharing this idea.
>>
>> ~ nI'ghma
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2018 10:04, "Rhona Fenwick" <qeslagh at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ghItlhpu' mayqel, jatlhpu':
>>
>> > Sometime ago, I had asked of a way to say "all of us", as if in "all of
>> us like cats".
>>
>> (poD vay')
>>
>> > {vIghro'mey DImuSHa' maH Hoch} ?
>> > all of us love cats
>>
>> As others have pointed out, since the head of the phrase *maH Hoch* is
>> still *Hoch*, it should condition third-person agreement.
>>
>> With that said, I think that it should not be *maH Hoch* as nIqolay
>> suggests, but *Hoch maH*. *Hoch* thus acts as a normal quantifier for
>> its nominal (in this case, pronominal) head. For instance, we know *Hoch
>> nuvpu'* is "all of the people", and we also know from *paq'batlh* that *Hoch
>> negh* is "all of the soldiers" (*paq'raD* 11.21), and it's only a very
>> small step to go from these to *Hoch maH*, which should take
>> first-person plural agreement. We don't have any canon examples, but I
>> feel it's a natural extension of the properties of both *Hoch* and
>> pronouns as outlined in TKD 5.1. I don't think it's the least bit unnatural
>> to say, for instance, *targh DIparHa' 'op maH 'ach vIghro' DIparHa' Hoch
>> maH* "some of us like targs, but all of us like cats".
>>
>> Whether we can leave out the free pronoun *maH* to give the same meaning
>> is, of course, an entirely different kettle of *qagh*. Many pro-drop
>> languages permit this: Georgian, Turkish, Finnish and Spanish, at least.
>> But we can't in good conscience assume that Klingon also does this, not
>> least because Klingon seems to be more rigid with its targets of agreement
>> than many Earth languages are.
>>
>>
>> jangpu' SuStel, jatlh:
>>
>> > The fierceness with which people desire a y'all in Klingon horrifies
>> me. This is no different.
>>
>>
>> I disagree strongly. Not only are the conversational implicatures of
>> speaking *to* a bunch of people versus speaking *on behalf of* a bunch
>> of people quite different, but a vast array of human languages with rigidly
>> defined number agreement are quite happy to allow plural pronouns of all
>> sorts to be quantified. What's more, in Klingon there's nothing we know
>> explicitly about either *maH* or *Hoch* that should in principle get in
>> the way of our using them together should the situation call for it. The
>> *only* problem we have is that we just don't have an explicit canon
>> example illustrating how or whether Klingon quantifies pronouns, though I
>> believe we have enough information about both quantifiers and free pronouns
>> to be able to extrapolate (in the absence of a contradictory formal
>> rule, at least).
>>
>>
>> Also, no less a speaker than Seqram consciously lampshaded the "all of
>> us" question at the end of his article about *Hoch* more than two
>> decades ago (*HolQeD* 5:2.11), so with all due respect (and I do have
>> much respect for you), maybe ease up a bit on being horrified.
>>
>>
>> QeS 'utlh
>>
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