[tlhIngan Hol] The prefix trick and indefinite subjects

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Mon Dec 24 13:39:05 PST 2018


On 12/24/2018 10:47 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
> On Dec 23, 2018, at 06:14, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name 
> <mailto:sustel at trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
>>> I know the dreaming part has been removed for simplicity here, but 
>>> can the frame of reference not be the dream? In the context of the 
>>> dream, if you’re thinking of the -taHvIS part, the describing isn’t 
>>> necessarily completed.
>>>
>>> I suppose -pu’ captures the “once” meaning from the original 
>>> sentence I was aiming for: “there’s a land that I dreamed of once in 
>>> a lullaby”.
>>
>> The frame of reference for this sentence, that is, the viewpoint from 
>> which it is being spoken, is after the describing is completed, but 
>> while the region is still thereabouts. That's what makes *Del* need a 
>> *-pu'.* Being thereabouts is not a completed action.
>>
>
> You’re speaking about this sentence specifically, and not broadly, 
> right? Because it is my understanding that in general, the frame of 
> reference can be from something within the sentence rather than the 
> actual frame of reference in which the speaker is speaking and the 
> listener is listening.
>
> For example:
>
> HeSwI'pu' luqoplu'ta' mapawpa'
> The criminals will have been arrested before we arrive
>
> In this case, we’re talking about an action that will have been 
> completed at some point in the future, from the frame of reference of 
> the utterance, but is already completed from the frame of reference of 
> our future arrival.

Yes, I was saying that in that sentence, the viewpoint, or frame of 
reference, is the moment of speaking. That's not necessarily true for 
every sentence, as you illustrate.


> So why can’t
>
> Sep vIDellu' jInajtaHvIS
> A region was described to me while I was dreaming
>
> be from the frame of reference of jInajtaH - I was dreaming? By extension,
>
> pa' Sep vIDellu'bogh jInajtaHvIS tu'lu'
> Thereabouts / a region / which was described to me / while I was 
> dreaming / is found (I chose this word order for this example because 
> it works more or less in both Klingon and English)
>
> Here, why can’t Del be something that happened while jInajtaH, and in 
> the frame of reference of jInajtaH, be an in-the-moment, 
> not-completed, not-continuous action?

Because you're asking the listener to adopt two viewpoints 
simultaneously: the moment in the dream when you're told about the 
region, and the moment the sentence is being spoken in which the region 
is found.

The main clause of the sentence, and the main idea, is that the region 
exists ("is found"). That's your viewpoint, your frame of reference. 
Everything else needs to be given in relation to that. There IS a 
region; it WAS described. *Sep tu'lu'; jIHvaD Dellu'pu'.*


-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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