[tlhIngan Hol] jIbogh vs jIboghpu' and a pizza

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Sat Dec 22 10:26:04 PST 2018


On 12/22/2018 12:26 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
> On 12/22/2018 10:27 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>> So, on one hand, I want to say "I have never asked for your help", on 
>> the other hand though, my "not asking for his help" still continues..
>
> I believe that you are still thinking too much from the English (or 
> greek) point of view. The aspect suffixes indicate whether the action 
> is completed, not when it happened.

This is correct.


> If you say {not qaghelpu'} then it's OVER. It means that the situation 
> has changed, or at least finished. As you wrote above, you do not 
> intend to ask in the future either, so it cannot be over, it's still 
> going on.

This is not correct.

That *not* makes this a hypothetical action. It's a kind of irrealis. 
It's pointing to a hypothetical completed action, and saying "except it 
didn't happen."/I asked for your help/ (a completed action)/... nope, 
that never happened./

This sentence isn't expressing a true state; it's expressing an 
irrealis. This is what's tripping you up.

Think of the scope of the *-pu':* you're thinking of it as *[not 
qaghel]pu'*//(my never asking you is completed); but it's really *not 
[qaghelpu']* (my completed asking you never occurred).


> My suggestion is to leave any aspect suffix off,
>
> {not qaghel}

This means /I never ask you./ (*ghel* is the wrong verb here; *tlhob* is 
the verb used for making requests; *ghel* is for asking for 
information.) It might be used to express a general state, and could 
very well be appropriate for the situation under consideration, but it 
doesn't say the same thing as *not qaghelpu'*/I have never asked you./


> and to emphasize, maybe add {-taH}:
>
> {not qaghel, 'ej not qagheltaH}
> "I never asked you, and I never will."

This would be better translated as /I never ask you, and I continue to 
not ask you./ It's redundant, and any notion of the future isn't really 
implied. If someone said *not qaghelpu' 'ej qaghelbe'taH,* I'd 
understand this as the original intention: /I've never asked you and I 
continue not to ask you./ If talking about the future were necessary, 
I'd put in some kind of time expression.


-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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