[tlhIngan Hol] ngIq (WAS: vengDaq, vengmeyDaq je)

[Brent Kesler]

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 1:03 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some time, a long time ago, in another thread I had asked more or less
> exactly the same questions.
>
> Many replied, many things were said, no useful results were made, no light
> was shed on this matter, and finally, after we got even more confused than
> we were at the beginning of that thread, we agreed that since a lot of
> information with regards to the grammar of {ngIq} is still unknown, it is
> essentially useless.
>


I had a felling that would be the case. I'll have to go back and read that
thread, see if it clears things up for me.



On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 1:22 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> That makes the meaning of {ngIq} almost always ambiguous.
>
>
> I disagree. It's fairly clear to me why the English translations are what
> they are. There may be ambiguity in that we don't fully know how to extend
> the use of {ngIq} *beyond* the examples, but I don't think the examples
> taken together are ambiguous.
>


I don't think the examples are ambiguous; I think {ngIq} is ambiguous. I
think that because the examples are outright *contradictory*.



Why does {ngIq nuv luHoH} mean "They kill each person" instead of "They
> kill a single person"?
>
>
> Because {ngIq} always deals with a collection of things. If it meant "They
> kill a single person", what happens to the others?
>
> Why does {ngIq tonSaw' lo'} mean "In a single move" instead of "With each
> move"?
>
>
> It means something like "with one move out of a collection of moves". The
> surrounding context makes it clear the translation should be "in a single
> move" rather than "in each move".
>


This is why I think the examples contradict each other. If it meant "He
uses a single move", what happens to the other moves in that collection?



Based on the canon examples, if you make a single statement with {ngIq
> veng}, it means "in each city (out of a collection of cities)". If you make
> a series of (structurally identical) statements with {ngIq veng}, you're
> explicitly listing what's done "in a single city" (going through each city
> in the collection). The ambiguity is in what happens if you use it in
> another way (e.g., how similar do the list of sentences have to be for the
> "single one" meaning?).
>


I was reading the {ngIq tonSaw' lo'} sentences as three sentences about a
single move: "In a single move he removed their hearts, restored his honor,
and won the battle". It looks like you're reading them as three sentences
about three different moves: "In one move he removed their hearts. Then he
made another move and restored his honor. Then he made yet another move and
won the battle."

Am I understanding you correctly?



On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 1:50 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy at alcaco.net>
wrote:

> On Sep 6, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Why does {ngIq tonSaw' lo'} mean "In a single move" instead of "With
> each move"?
>
> It doesn't "mean" that. It can be *translated* that way in the passage
> because of the context given along with it.



But {ngIq tonSaw' lo'} does mean *something*, right? Maybe it can't mean
something on its own; maybe it needs some other sentence to complete the
idea, the same way {A Q law'} needs {B Q puS}.

Even so, I argue that no matter the context, {ngIq} will always be
ambiguous. It will never be clear whether it means "one thing out of a
collection of things" or "every item in a collection taken one by one".

Like I said, I don't have the full context of paq'batlh available to me,
but we can do a simple experiment:

   1. Take one of the canon {ngIq} sentences.
   2. Come up with some context to make it obvious that {ngIq} means "all
   of them, one by one".
   3. Come up with some different context to make it obvious that {ngIq}
   means "just one thing out of a collection of things".

I say that's impossible, unless the context pretty much defines {ngIq} for
you.

bI'reng


>
> --
> De'vID
>
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