[tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a'

[De'vID]

On 4 January 2017 at 12:07, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
> First, it is truly amusing to be listening all the time “the beginner
> expects this, or the beginner expects that”. Because I will ask, what
> beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly write here, or the zero
> beginners who rushed to introduce themselves here a few days ago when
> lieven asked them to ?

Hold on a second. You were the one who introduced the idea that you're
writing for beginners. The reason that I would prefer that you use
punctuation is because *I* can't understand what you write.

>From a previous thread:
>> mu'ghom Dalo'nIStaHchugh vaj Hol qa' DatIvlaHbe' teH Qatlh ghojmeH
>> mIw 'ej naQchoHmeH qaStaHvIS poH nI' bIvum net 'utmoH 'a tagha'
>> Dunbej tev Dachavta'bogh
>
> ghunchu'wI':
> I got as far as {DativlaHbe' teH Qatlh} before losing the thread completely

Like ghunchu'wI', I can't parse your sentence either, and this is true
for many of your previous messages as well. It's not only a matter of
missing punctuation, it's also your "work-arounds" for non-existent
problems that nobody understands except for you. (Why do you use {net
'utmoH} instead of {-nIS}? Why do you invent neologisms like {SaDlogh}
instead of rephrasing your sentence using {law'} or other
commonly-used tools of Klingon grammar?)

> Also, it is truly remarkable the fact, that you speak in the name of a
> supposed number of beginners, without ever any beginner speaking for
> himself. Only Brian Cote wrote at this thread, and nowhere at the few
> posts I wrote, which didn’t use punctuation, did any beginner
> complain.

A couple of people who are long-time speakers of the language have
complained that they can't understand what you write. Maybe no
beginners have complained because they don't even bother reading
anything you write as it's so incomprehensible. Have you considered
that?

When I have time, I usually try to read long Klingon texts posted to
this list. I have no trouble reading Qov's stories, even though they
are pages long. I have much more trouble reading your posts, precisely
because you don't think it's a problem that you don't follow the
conventions used by others.

> So, now I will ask you:
>
> 1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and
> complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing
> beginners ?”
> 2. When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ?
>
> And the answer is no. Do you know why ?

You've been around long enough that you should know that when a
long-time speaker writes something incomprehensible, others usually
reply to ask for clarification or point out an obvious error. You're
simply wrong that we wouldn't tell long-timers not to transliterate if
one did so. If you haven't observed it, it's because long-timers know
to follow the conventions listed in the FAQ for clarity of
communication.

> Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals, who
> know each other a very long time, and of course look the other way
> when someone breaks the rules, which you are so much fond of. But when
> an outsider (such as me), someone who doesn’t belong in your tight
> circle begins to differentiate himself, then you turn against him,
> speaking to him as an inferior person who has to comply to your
> standards, as if this is some kind of “simon says” game.

The idea that the long-time members of this mailing list form a
closely-knit group who picks on outsiders is nonsense. You've been
around long enough that you should know that there are heated
disagreements among the long-time speakers of Klingon. The issue here
isn't that you're an "outsider" (which, considering how long you've
been on the list and how much you post, you're not). The issue here is
that you insist on writing in your own invented dialect of Klingon
that nobody else understands, or can only understand with additional
effort.

> There is an english word, which describes exactly what’s going on
> here: “patronize”. Defined as: “treat with an apparent kindness which
> betrays a feeling of superiority”. Perhaps at the next qep’a’, your
> community should ask okrand for a klingon word for this term, because
> it surely describes a lot of you here.

There's actually a non-canon Klingon word for someone who insists on
not following the list's conventions: {tlhoqo'}. See here:
http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KLIwords

You, mayqel qunenoS, are a {tlhoqo'}.

> You should ask okrand for another word: “to drive someone away from an
> art/skill/language”, because obviously there are a lot of people here,
> who are described by that term too..

I've found that what usually drives people away from this mailing list
is interminable arguments about minutiae of the language, like whether
to use punctuation, rather than using it.

> There will be no “experts”, at least not the way you perceive them to
> be here/today. Because people who will be having the determination to
> learn, will have been systematically driven away. Why ? Because
> someone who is willing to put the effort in order to learn, isn’t a
> weak person who will tolerate being pushed around by “experts”.

Most people fail when it comes to learning a language, especially
people who insist on not following the conventions followed by the
rest of the language's speakers. Imagine that we're discussing French
and you refuse to write the accents, arguing that they're unnecessary
and that people who insist on them are driving students away. If
students are indeed driven away by that, I'd say, "too bad, but
tough". A teacher who insists that rules should be followed isn't a
bad teacher; a student who refuses to follow the rules is a bad
student.

You're not the first person to insist on writing Klingon in a way that
others can't understand. There used to be an organisation called the
Interstellar Language School (ILS), which was a rival to the KLI.
Unlike the KLI, the ILS was much more lenient about following Klingon
language conventions. They fragmented because each member invented
their own way of writing Klingon which was mutually incomprehensible
to others. The core members of the KLI insisted that everyone should
follow a fairly strict of conventions, and the KLI still exists.

Maybe the community of Klingon speakers will cease to exist in some
decades, but refraining from telling people that they should follow
rules when writing Klingon isn't going to slow the process. If
anything, it will hasten it by fragmentation.

> I came here in order to learn klingon, because as I said in the past,
> I had a serious purpose for which I needed it. That purpose I
> accomplished. The klingon I have learnt, is more than sufficient for
> the purpose which I need it.

I hope that purpose is fulfilled by your speaking a dialect of Klingon
that others don't understand.

> It is sad though, that all the time you invested, all the effort you
> have made, and all the energy you spent, counted for nothing. Because
> I may have accomplished my goal of learning the amount of klingon
> which I wanted for my purpose, but the community lost a person who
> would be actually serious about this language.
>
> But, since this is obviously what you want, then I will be happy to
> oblige. In a few days I will unsubscribe, so we can all be happy
> again.

Duvuv SuS DaneH.

-- 
De'vID