[tlhIngan Hol] The use of 'aqroS

mayqel qunenoS mihkoun at gmail.com
Wed Aug 2 10:57:32 PDT 2017

oh SuStel, I'm impressed ! respect !

This has been one of the best, mind-blowing explanations, I have ever read
! Beautiful ! Absolutely amazing !

I wasn't aware that this distinction existed between possessive-genitive
case. Even the {baS 'In}, I used to interpret it as "drum of metal", but I
had never actually realized that "the metal doesn't own the drum".

However let me ask you.

If someone wanted to use the genitive case (where the first noun describes
the second), would there be any limitation as to the choice of noun which
would/could occupy the first slot ?

I mean, as long as the resulting phrase makes sense, then anything goes
right ?


On 2 Aug 2017 8:30 pm, "SuStel" <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:

> On 8/2/2017 1:01 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> We have the canon phrase {'aqroS qughDo} for "maximum cruising speed".
> (canon because it is from the bird of prey poster).
> The way I analyze this phrase, it is "cruising speed of maximum".
> There are two ways to interpret the noun-noun construction, genitive or
> possessive. Possessive is a subset of genitive.
> You already understand possessive: it means the first noun owns, or holds,
> or is otherwise associated with the second noun. *HoD quS* *captain's
> chair; chair of the captain; chair owned by, held by, or otherwise
> associated with the captain.*
> Genitive means the first noun modifies the meaning of the second noun,
> typically by narrowing the possible types of noun you're talking about. *baS
> 'In* *metal drum:* you're not saying metal owns, holds, or is associated
> with the drum; you're narrowing down what kind of drum you mean by saying
> it's the metal kind.
> Possessive is a subset of genitive because a possessive noun also narrows
> the possible meanings of the second noun. Of all possible chairs, the one
> you're referring to is the one owned, held, or associated with the captain.
> *'aqroS qughDo* *maximum cruising speed *is an example of a genitive
> construction that is not a possessive construction. The cruising speed
> doesn't own, hold, or find itself associated with the concept of maximum.
> Instead, you're specifying what kind of cruising speed you're talking about
> by narrowing it down to maximum cruising speed.
> English sentences do not make this distinction clear, and Klingon almost
> doesn't distinguish at all between them. I can think of one instance where
> it does: when using pronouns with "relative area" nouns, you don't use the
> possessive suffixes; you use pronouns in a noun-noun construction: *jIH
> Dung* *area above me *instead of *DungwIj; maH 'em* *area in front of us *instead
> of *'emmaj.* Otherwise, it's unclear whether, for instance, *tlhIngan Hol*
> means *language associated with Klingons* or *language specified by its
> Klingonness.* Or if you don't know the context, one might have a bunch of
> chairs lined up, and you're asked which one is the chair some hypothetical
> captain might use. There the phrase *HoD quS* wouldn't be possessive,
> because you're not talking about a captain owning or holding or being
> associated with the chair; you're talking about narrowing down the type of
> chair.
> Would it be acceptable if we wrote {qughDo 'aqroS} for "the maximum of
> cruising speed" ? Would it mean the same ?
> *'aqroS qughDo* talks about a cruising speed: maximum cruising speed,
> instead of half cruising speed or minimum cruising speed. *qughDo 'aqroS*
> talks about a maximum: cruising speed maximum, instead of emergency speed
> maximum or thruster speed maximum.
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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