[tlhIngan Hol] We got words for a Spiral, now what to do with them...

[Jeremy Silver]

On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 12:27:22 BST SuStel wrote:
> On 8/9/2017 5:57 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
> > {mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj.
> > ghaH vIjeghpa'*Nibia*  maSmey retlhDaq,*Antares*  vertaHbogh
> > vIHtaHghach'a'
> > retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq je vItlha'!}
> 
> *mubechmoH ghaH'e'.*
> 
> Khan's line is /He tasks me./ I've always assumed this refers to Kirk
> exiling Khan to Ceti Alpha V. *muvummoH.* I see no reason for the
> *ghaH'e'* here; it doesn't reflect the English original.

I thought the "he" was emphasized a bit in the original, and that it needed to 
be marked to clarify that it is that "he" that is the topic of the parts that 
follow. Sometimes if there are a bunch of possible interpretaions, the context 
is not clear and needs making more obvious.

I had to do a bit of digging and found various meanings for "He tasks me", and 
believe I was right in the "subject-to-hardship" sense. Because Ceti Alpha V 
became uninabitable, Khan lost his wife and suffered hardship and I'd say 
"causes to suffer" still works.

> 
> *mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj.*
> 
> There is no indication in this what you mean by *vIghaj.* It just means
> /I had/have/will have him/her/it./ I also don't know if the English
> idiomatic meaning of /get in my power/ comes through, or the /therefore/
> sense of English /and./ I'd recast this whole thing as *muvummoH; vaj
> vIghatlh.*

I agree {ghaj} is probably too general, but I'm not sure how clearly marking 
the topic in the previous clause does not indicate the topic of the following 
one.

But I'm not sure "dominate" is what I want here, I am unaware of the idiomatic 
meaning you mention. {jon} might work better. Or maybe {chargh}. Or maybe just 
{HoH}. It has to work for a great white whale, whether or not it has the word 
"Enterprise" stamped on the side.

> 
> You put the *ghaH vIjeghpa'* at the beginning of the long sentence, but
> Khan put it at the end in his English. You should do the same to reflect
> his emphasis. Subordinate clauses can go on either side of the sentence.
> 
> I don't think *jegh* means the /let go/ sense of English /surrender;/ it
> means /stop trying./ You could just say *jIjeghpa'* /before I give up,/
> or you could be more literal and say *nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'*/before I let
> him escape./

I've seen jegh used like this (probably equally incorrectly), but I agree 
{nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'} carries the meaning.


> 
> /*Nibia*/*maSmey retlhDaq*
> 
> Hey, I asked for /around/ from Okrand and everybody said "But what does
> that mean?" This is what it means. *wejpuH.*
> 

English is far too slippery at times, "around" can mean a few things. Okrand 
in TKD has as an English example, something about "Dogs chasing cats around 
canaries" but promptly doesnt say how one goes about saying that.

"Around" could mean something like "in the vicinity of", and "beside" carries 
that meaning, so I cheated a bit.

But it could also mean something like following a circular/curved course 
(that's not necessarily an orbit) past (not to) cape horn and some whirlpool 
somewhere. I couldn't think of a way to express that at the time.

> I'd probably do this as /*Nibia*/*maSmey HayDaq*/to the area beyond
> Nibia's moons./

Looks like an excuse to use another shiny new word, I'll go for it.

> 
> /*Antares*/*vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a'*
> 
> I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced *-ghach*. How about
> just saying /*Antares*/*mI'rab'a'?*

It probably could be fairly forced as I was trying for something that would 
work for both a whirlpool and some kind of strange flow of something near 
Antares. But I'm not sure a {mI'rab} connotes the necessary movement. I think 
it needs to be something that will {ver} like a {SuS'a'}, but that also works 
for water.

> 
> The end result:
> 
> *muvummoH. muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh. /Nibia/ maSmey HayDaq, /Antares/
> mI'rab'a' HayDaq, ghe''or qul HayDaq je vItlha' jIjeghpa'.*

Thanks for your input. How about this?:

{mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIchargh.
*Nibia*  maSmey HayDaq, *Antares*  vertaHwI''a' HoSghaj HayDaq,  ghe''or 
qulmey HayDaq je vItlha';  nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'!}



That said that movie's great for quotes, so here's another:

{Qo'! ...Qo'! bInarghlaHbe'. ghe''or tIqvo', SoHvaD jIDuQ; jImuSchu'mo', 
SoHvaD tlhuHwIj Qav vItuy'.}

I want this to remain poetic, but replacing {ghe''or tIqvo'} with {ghe''or 
qoDvo'} is already considered. I'm also choosing {SoHvaD jIDuQ} on purpose to 
indicate a stab in your general direction as opposed to a direct hit. Does 
this work?

Thanks,
mupwI'