[tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: matlhHa'

[mayqel qunenoS]

SuStel:
> But I can tell you that -lu' does not mean "someone does something to someone."
> It means "someone or something unspecified or abstract does something." Maybe
> it's done to something, maybe not.

This confuses me greatly;

I read again section 4.2.5. of tkd, and yes the first thing it says is
"This suffix is used to indicate that the subject is unknown,
indefinite, and/or general".

On the other hand though, immediately it continues by saying: "Since
the subject is always the same (that is, it is always unstated), the
pronominal prefixes (section 4.1.1) are used in a different way". And
proceeds by giving examples of the kind "someone/something does
something to someone/something".

Even the example {Soplu'} is given as "it is eaten". Of course it
could be also taken as "someone eats it"; but, how can someone write
{Soplu'} in order to say "someone eats (period)" ?

Perhaps you will answer by saying "even if you say someone eats
(period), then again *that* someone is eating something so we
essentially say the same thing".

ok.. perhaps I can see your point; but my problem is that the tkd does
not have a single example like {yItlu'} for "someone is walking", or
{neplu'} for "someone is lying" etc. So, how can we accept such a
usage of {-lu'} ?

SuStel:
> The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone,"
> while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract

I can't understand this either; how is {lu'} abstract and {vay'}
definite ? Both mean someone. Someone unknown/unspecified. I can't see
any difference between them.

qunnoq


On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 6:55 PM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 9/19/2016 11:38 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> It always pisses me off, to read canon sentences which make no sense ;
>
> matlhHa'lu'chugh vaj Doghlu' 'e' yaymeH molor
>
> the way I understand the use of the suffix {-lu'}, and the way we have
> discussed it here so many months, it is used to mean that "someone
> does something to someone" ; not that "someone does something period".
> For the latter purpose we use {vay'}; not {-lu'}.
>
> I don't happen to have paq'batlh handy, so I can't tell you what the actual
> English version says, and I don't know what yaymeH means.
>
> But I can tell you that -lu' does not mean "someone does something to
> someone." It means "someone or something unspecified or abstract does
> something." Maybe it's done to something, maybe not.
>
> matlhHa'lu'chugh
> if someone unspecified is disloyal
>
> Doghlu'
> someone unspecified is foolish
>
> If I want to say "someone confuses me" I will say {vImISmoHlu'}, and
> if I want to say "someone is confused" I will write {mIS vay'}. I
> can't write {mISlu'} meaning that "someone is confused".
>
> Sure you can. The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone,"
> while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract (though it
> doesn't necessarily mean that).
>
> At the aforementioned jay' sentence we obviously have a meaning which
> goes something like "if someone is disloyal then someone is
> foolish..", and in order to describe this intended meaning we see the
> words {matlhHa'lu'chugh} and {Doghlu'} respectively.
>
> Are we serious ?
>
> HIja'
>
> qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh vaj wa' tlhIngan ghob potlhqu'
>
> The {qorDu' SaHlu'chugh} is correct. But when it comes to the
> {matlhlu'chugh} then again things make no sense. If the
> {matlhlu'chugh} is used on its own in order to say "if someone is
> loyal", then it is wrong. And if the {matlhlu'chugh} refers to the
> {qorDu'}, then again we have the meaning "if someone cares for his
> family, and if someone is loyal his family.."
>
> qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh
> if one cares about family and if one is loyal
>
> And as if all these weren't enough, when we read past the {vaj} the
> sentence takes the meaning "then one (or one's) very important klingon
> virtue" and then period. ?!?!?!
>
> The SkyBox cards have the most errors of all of Okrand's Klingon. He did
> them pretty early on. For your own sanity, just accept this.
>
> And I will ask again.. Are we serious ? These are the kind of canon
> sentences which are supposed to help people understand proper klingon
> ?
>
>
> The SkyBox cards never had the goal of helping people understand proper
> Klingon. They were made for Star Trek fans.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
>
>
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