[tlhIngan Hol] What exactly does the {'ej} connect ?

[André Müller]

Ah yes, completely right with the cat & BoP example. I would say the
sentences in just the same way.
I forgot that I was talking about {je} there, so I think I got confused in
my last message a bit. These are simply "big" nouns, more or less (Noun
Phrases or NPs), so {je} connects them.

- André

2016-11-15 17:35 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:

> I see..
>
> So, in order to say "the cat that I gave you and the bird of prey that I
> sent you", I will say:
>
> {vIghro' Danobbogh toQ DangeHbogh je}
>
> And if I want to say "the cat that I gave you and the bird of prey that I
> sent you, are noisy", I will write:
>
> {chuS vIghro' Danobbogh toQ DangeHbogh je}
>
> Would you agree with the above ?
>
> qunnoH
> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>
> On 15 Nov 2016 6:22 pm, "André Müller" <esperantist at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That might have been the example, yes.
>>
>> A relative clause is formed with {-bogh} in Klingon, so {paq
>> vIlaDlI'bogh} is the book that I am reading. So your sentence is an example
>> of a noun {Dargh} with two relativized verbs attached to it.
>>
>> - André
>>
>> 2016-11-15 16:56 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> andre muller:
>>> > nouns with relative clauses
>>>
>>> What is a "noun with relative clause" ? Could you write an example ?
>>>
>>> andre muller:
>>> > Note, that {'ej} can also connect 2 relative clauses:
>>> > (X-bogh 'ej Y-bogh Z = a Z which is X and Y), although I cannot find
>>> the example right now.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it is {SuDbogh Dargh 'ej wovbogh}, but I don't remember the
>>> source..
>>>
>>> qunnoH jan puqloD
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:42 PM, André Müller <esperantist at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I think that it's better to remember that {'ej} connects clauses, not
>>> just
>>> > sentences. The two parts ending in {-taHvIS} are not relative clauses,
>>> but
>>> > temporal clauses ("while..."), they could also be called converbs
>>> ("-ing").
>>> >
>>> > Linguistically speaking, it is the best to remember that {je} connects
>>> noun
>>> > phrases (so not just nouns, but also nouns with relative clauses,
>>> nouns with
>>> > adjectives, pronouns, etc.), and {'ej} connects everything else
>>> (though not
>>> > everything).
>>> >
>>> > We have to remember that MO didn't write TKD for a linguistic audience
>>> and
>>> > that he didn't always use extremely precise unambiguous terminology.
>>> So when
>>> > he says sentences in this case, he might actually mean clauses, or
>>> verbs, or
>>> > verbal phrases. Canon examples show when {'ej} is used.
>>> >
>>> > Note, that {'ej} can also connect 2 relative clauses: (X-bogh 'ej
>>> Y-bogh Z =
>>> > a Z which is X and Y), although I cannot find the example right now.
>>> >
>>> > - André
>>> >
>>> > 2016-11-15 13:51 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:
>>> >>
>>> >> hmm.. I see..
>>> >>
>>> >> so, at the sentence {jIyIttaHvIS 'ej jISoptaHvIS, vIghro' vIgho'}, the
>>> >> {'ej} *does* connect two sentences:
>>> >>
>>> >> sentence one: {jIyIt}
>>> >> sentence two: {jISop}
>>> >>
>>> >> the {-taHvIS} just creates relative clauses out of these sentences.
>>> right
>>> >> ?
>>> >>
>>> >> qunnoH
>>> >> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 15 Nov 2016 1:29 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 15 November 2016 at 12:18, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> > De'vID;
>>> >>> >> Note the part that says {lengtaHvIS... 'ej charghtaSvIS}.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > maj. this answers my question, and shows that the {'ej} is indeed
>>> able
>>> >>> > to join two "parts of a sentence" (I don't know how else to call
>>> >>> > them).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Subordinate clauses. See TKD 6.2.2.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > and -correct me if I'm wrong-, according to this canon example we
>>> >>> > could write too: {qaleghmeH 'ej qa'uchmeH, jIlengta'} for "in
>>> order to
>>> >>> > see you and in order to hold you, I traveled". Also, we could write
>>> >>> > {qaleghDI' 'ej qa'uchDI' jIQuchchoH} for "as soon as I saw you and
>>> as
>>> >>> > soon as I held you, I became happy"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Correct.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > however, this does contradict the "strict description" of {'ej},
>>> that
>>> >>> > "it is used to join sentences". Unless of course, what I've been
>>> >>> > calling "parts of a sentence" are considered to be true sentences..
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You're thinking about this the wrong way.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> {'ej} *is* joining two sentence: {loghDaq leng} and {qo'mey Sar
>>> chargh}.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> By applying {-taHvIS} to the verb of a sentence, it becomes a
>>> >>> subordinate clause. And what's the verb of the compound sentence
>>> >>> {loghDaq leng 'ej qo'mey Sar chargh}? It has two verbs: {leng} and
>>> >>> {chargh}.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There's no contradiction here. There's an unstated (and I think
>>> pretty
>>> >>> intuitive) rule that if a sentence is compound, the verb suffixes
>>> >>> apply to all the relevant verbs.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> De'vID
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