[tlhIngan Hol] What exactly does the {'ej} connect ?

Tue Nov 15 08:46:48 PST 2016

so, strictly speaking, the {vIghro' Danobbogh} isn't a relative clause; it
is a noun phrase, right ?

sorry for insisting on this; I just want to clarify this, before moving on..

qunnoH
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'

On 15 Nov 2016 6:41 pm, "André Müller" <esperantist at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah yes, completely right with the cat & BoP example. I would say the
> sentences in just the same way.
> I forgot that I was talking about {je} there, so I think I got confused in
> my last message a bit. These are simply "big" nouns, more or less (Noun
> Phrases or NPs), so {je} connects them.
>
> - André
>
> 2016-11-15 17:35 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:
>
>> I see..
>>
>> So, in order to say "the cat that I gave you and the bird of prey that I
>> sent you", I will say:
>>
>> {vIghro' Danobbogh toQ DangeHbogh je}
>>
>> And if I want to say "the cat that I gave you and the bird of prey that I
>> sent you, are noisy", I will write:
>>
>> {chuS vIghro' Danobbogh toQ DangeHbogh je}
>>
>> Would you agree with the above ?
>>
>> qunnoH
>> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>>
>> On 15 Nov 2016 6:22 pm, "André Müller" <esperantist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That might have been the example, yes.
>>>
>>> A relative clause is formed with {-bogh} in Klingon, so {paq
>>> vIlaDlI'bogh} is the book that I am reading. So your sentence is an example
>>> of a noun {Dargh} with two relativized verbs attached to it.
>>>
>>> - André
>>>
>>> 2016-11-15 16:56 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> andre muller:
>>>> > nouns with relative clauses
>>>>
>>>> What is a "noun with relative clause" ? Could you write an example ?
>>>>
>>>> andre muller:
>>>> > Note, that {'ej} can also connect 2 relative clauses:
>>>> > (X-bogh 'ej Y-bogh Z = a Z which is X and Y), although I cannot find
>>>> the example right now.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it is {SuDbogh Dargh 'ej wovbogh}, but I don't remember the
>>>> source..
>>>>
>>>> qunnoH jan puqloD
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:42 PM, André Müller <esperantist at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I think that it's better to remember that {'ej} connects clauses, not
>>>> just
>>>> > sentences. The two parts ending in {-taHvIS} are not relative
>>>> clauses, but
>>>> > temporal clauses ("while..."), they could also be called converbs
>>>> ("-ing").
>>>> >
>>>> > Linguistically speaking, it is the best to remember that {je}
>>>> connects noun
>>>> > phrases (so not just nouns, but also nouns with relative clauses,
>>>> nouns with
>>>> > adjectives, pronouns, etc.), and {'ej} connects everything else
>>>> (though not
>>>> > everything).
>>>> >
>>>> > We have to remember that MO didn't write TKD for a linguistic
>>>> audience and
>>>> > that he didn't always use extremely precise unambiguous terminology.
>>>> So when
>>>> > he says sentences in this case, he might actually mean clauses, or
>>>> verbs, or
>>>> > verbal phrases. Canon examples show when {'ej} is used.
>>>> >
>>>> > Note, that {'ej} can also connect 2 relative clauses: (X-bogh 'ej
>>>> Y-bogh Z =
>>>> > a Z which is X and Y), although I cannot find the example right now.
>>>> >
>>>> > - André
>>>> >
>>>> > 2016-11-15 13:51 GMT+01:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> hmm.. I see..
>>>> >>
>>>> >> so, at the sentence {jIyIttaHvIS 'ej jISoptaHvIS, vIghro' vIgho'},
>>>> the
>>>> >> {'ej} *does* connect two sentences:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> sentence one: {jIyIt}
>>>> >> sentence two: {jISop}
>>>> >>
>>>> >> the {-taHvIS} just creates relative clauses out of these sentences.
>>>> right
>>>> >> ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> qunnoH
>>>> >> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 15 Nov 2016 1:29 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On 15 November 2016 at 12:18, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > De'vID;
>>>> >>> >> Note the part that says {lengtaHvIS... 'ej charghtaSvIS}.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > maj. this answers my question, and shows that the {'ej} is indeed
>>>> able
>>>> >>> > to join two "parts of a sentence" (I don't know how else to call
>>>> >>> > them).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Subordinate clauses. See TKD 6.2.2.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > and -correct me if I'm wrong-, according to this canon example we
>>>> >>> > could write too: {qaleghmeH 'ej qa'uchmeH, jIlengta'} for "in
>>>> order to
>>>> >>> > see you and in order to hold you, I traveled". Also, we could
>>>> write
>>>> >>> > {qaleghDI' 'ej qa'uchDI' jIQuchchoH} for "as soon as I saw you
>>>> and as
>>>> >>> > soon as I held you, I became happy"
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Correct.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > however, this does contradict the "strict description" of {'ej},
>>>> that
>>>> >>> > "it is used to join sentences". Unless of course, what I've been
>>>> >>> > calling "parts of a sentence" are considered to be true
>>>> sentences..
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> You're thinking about this the wrong way.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> {'ej} *is* joining two sentence: {loghDaq leng} and {qo'mey Sar
>>>> chargh}.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> By applying {-taHvIS} to the verb of a sentence, it becomes a
>>>> >>> subordinate clause. And what's the verb of the compound sentence
>>>> >>> {loghDaq leng 'ej qo'mey Sar chargh}? It has two verbs: {leng} and
>>>> >>> {chargh}.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There's no contradiction here. There's an unstated (and I think
>>>> pretty
>>>> >>> intuitive) rule that if a sentence is compound, the verb suffixes
>>>> >>> apply to all the relevant verbs.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> De'vID
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>>>> >>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>>>> >>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>>>> >> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>>>> >> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>>>> > tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>>>> > http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>>>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>>>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/attachments/20161115/973cffba/attachment-0002.htm>