[tlhIngan-Hol] [Tlhingan-hol] Klingons and cockroaches

Wed Jun 1 09:12:51 PDT 2016

mayqel qunenoS :
> but let me ask one more thing, in order to see whether I actually
> understood the {-neS}.
> someone tell me, if all these possible translations are correct, for the
> sentence which I wrote :
> 
> {targhwIj yIHoHneS} may translate as :
> 
> do me the honor of killing my dog
> kill my dog your honor
> kill my dog your highness
> etc..
> 
> right ?

All correct.  The point isn't the precise title or phrase which Okrand added to the translations - i.e. do me the honor, your highness, your majesty, your Magnificence, etc. - but the feel of the deference (dare I say, obsequiousness?) when addressing one of higher rank; probably, significantly higher rank.  (I wouldn't expect an army private to use {-neS} to his corporal or a waiter/waitress to a customer, for example.)  

Interestingly, none of Okrand's examples use {-neS} together with an actual rank or title (e.g. {joHwI'} "my lord/lady", {ta'wI'} "my emperor", {HoD} "captain", or even {qaH} "sir/ma'am" for that matter.  I suspect that would be felt as over-doing it or even sarcasm - which could have, as Okrand likes to put it, "unfortunate consequences".

--
Voragh
tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer at uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
> > qunnoq:
> >> >> DojneS mIplIj
> >> >> Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
> >> >
> >> > this sentence rubs me the wrong way (as americans say) [...] So,
> >> > this means what? that by placing the {-neS} on a verb, I just
> >> > express politeness, without this {-neS} though, having anything to
> >> > do with altering the verb's meaning?
> >
> > Lieven:
> >> Yes indeed. Whatever the sentence is, by adding {-neS} it makes you
> >> talk to a superior.
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SIS}
> >>    "Today it's raining in China."
> >>
> >> adding {-neS} does not change anything on the phrase, except that you
> >> show respect to the person you are talking to:
> >>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SISneS}
> >>    "Today it's raining in China, sir."
> >>    "Today it's raining in China, your honor."
> >>    "Today it's raining in China, honorable king."
> >>    "Today it's raining in China, you so much admired captain."
> >>
> >> (of course the words "captain" or "king" are not inlcuded, but it
> >> makes the idea clear)
> >
> > qunnoq should note that it's more than simple courtesy (which is not
> something Klingon warriors value), but rather *extreme* politeness or
> deference and is only used in addressing a superior.  As Okrand pointed
> out:  "It is never required ... This suffix is used rather infrequently by
> Klingons" (TKD p.43).  Consequently, there are relatively few known
> examples in canon:
> >
> >   qaleghneS
> >   I am honored to see you. PK
> >
> >   choQaHpu'neS
> >   You, honored one, have helped me. KGT
> >
> >   qatlhobneS
> >   Please. (TNK)
> >
> >   po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'
> >   Your gunners are skilled, your Honor. PK
> >
> >   DojneS mIplIj
> >   Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
> >
> >   cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS
> >   Give me a permit to sell dilithium, your honor. PK
> >
> >   QaghwIj vIQIj 'e' yIchaw'neS
> >   Permit me to explain my mistake, your Honor. PK
> >
> >   naDev juHlIjDaq cha'logh jISopneSchugh vaj jIquv
> >   It would be an honor to eat twice here at your house, your Honor. PK
> >
> >
> > Here are more details for those interested:
> >
> > TKD 43:  There is but one suffix in this category. It is used to express
> extreme politeness or deference. It is used only in addressing a superior,
> someone of higher rank in the Klingon social, political, or military
> hierarchy. It is never required.
> >    {qaleghneS}   I am honored to see you
> >    {HIja'neS}    do me the honor of telling me
> > This suffix is used rather infrequently by Klingons.
> >
> > KGT 192:  Thus, {qaleghneS} ("I see you honorably" or, perhaps more
> naturally, "I am honored to see you"), which ends in the honorific suffix
> {-neS}, is different in meaning from {qaleghnIS} ("I need to see you"),
> which ends in the suffix {-nIS} (need, must). Furthermore, since {-neS} is
> used only in addressing a superior, saying {-neS} rather than {-nIS} may
> be bestowing honor inappropriately.
> >
> > KGT 38-39:  The most obvious grammatical feature associated with social
> status is the verb suffix {-neS} (an honorific) used to express a high
> degree of respect or honor. For example, one might say {choQaHpu'neS},
> which might be rather awkwardly translated as "You, honored one, have
> helped me". (Compare this to {choQaHpu'} ["You have helped me."]) Though
> there is no situation in which the use of {-neS} is required and its use
> is rather infrequent, when it is used, it is used only when addressing
> someone of higher rank, such as a higher officer in the military or a high
> political leader. It would not be used by a higher-ranking officer, for
> example, when speaking to a lower-ranking officer, nor would it be used
> when talking about a higher-ranking person. Thus, one would not describe
> being aided by a superior by saying {muQaHpu'neS} ("He/she, whom I honor,
> has helped me").
> >    Of course, one does not need the suffix {-neS} in order to speak of
> > honor. The adverbial {batlh} (in an honored fashion) may be used for
> > exactly this function, as in {batlh muQaHpu'} ("He/she has helped me
> > in an honored way" or "He/she has helped me with honor"). While it
> > would be entirely inappropriate for a superior to say to an inferior
> > {choQaHpu'neS} ("You, honored one, have helped me"), the superior may
> > say {batlh choQaHpu'} ("You have helped me in an honored way" or "You
> > have helped me with honor"). The relative ranking of individuals may
> > be ascertained by noting who says -neS to whom." (KGT 38-39)
> >
> > (Lawrence Schoen, DaHjaj Hol 110623):  {-neS} is an honorific, and you
> tack it on to the end of a verb when you are speaking to someone and wish
> to convey your deference or respect. You'd certainly use this when
> speaking to the Emperor, but might also use it to show respect to a
> superior, an elder, a teacher, or most anyone you wish to grovel before
> (not that Klingons grovel, mind you). Translations of this suffix always
> sound a little odd to English speakers; probably because we don't have
> this kind of phenomenon. As such, don't worry too much about the
> literalness of the translation, and instead understand the intention,
> which is to be formal and polite.
> >
> > KGT 49:  The honorific verb suffix {-neS}, usually used when addressing
> a superior, is also used when the verb refers to a suicide attack of some
> kind: {HIvneS}, awkwardly translated as "honor-attack", implies that
> suicide is part of the plan of the attack. Similarly, {HubneS} ("honor-
> defend") is used only when suicide is part of the defense plan. To say
> "attack honorably" but not refer to a suicide mission, the adverbial
> {batlh} is employed and the suffix {-neS} is not: {batlh HIv} ("attack
> honorably, attack in an honorable fashion").
> >
> > Honorifics do show up in Terran languages.  Arika Okrent wrote in her
> entertaining (and highly recommended) 2009 book _In the land of invented
> languages: Esperanto rock stars, Klingon poets, Loglan lovers, and the mad
> dreamers who tried to build a perfect language_ (New York: Spiegel & Grau;
> cf. http://inthelandofinventedlanguages.com/ ):
> >
> >   Honorifics ({-neS}), used to recognize superior social status
> >   in the person being spoken to or about, are a part of Korean
> >   and Japanese.  [page 270]
> >
> >
> > And while we're talking deference, don't forget {qaH} "sir":
> >
> >   bach Do', qaH...
> >   A lucky shot sir... ST3
> >
> >   yajchu', qaH.
> >   Understood clearly, sir. ST3
> >
> >   lu', qaH!
> >   Yes, sir! KGT
> >
> > But be careful when using it:
> >
> > KGT 193:  Misprounouncing {qaH} as {qagh} has often led to particularly
> unfortunate results.
> >
> > And God help you if you inadvertantly say {qoH} "fool"!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Voragh
> > tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'
> > Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
> 
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