[tlhIngan Hol] Thoughts on {-moH}

[Lieven]

Am 08.12.2016 um 17:42 schrieb SuStel:
>> {matlh nobmoH Qugh} = "Kruge causes Maltz to give"
>> We all agree on that, right?
>
> Not necessarily. p/aq'batlh/ gives us the sentence *ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je
> vIghojmoH*/I will... teach him life and death./

Don't forget that PB is not always 100% to be taken as a guide. In this 
example, I think that ghojmoH is taken literally as "teach".
Either
A) The object of ghojmoH is the person learning, so here it is "life and 
death"
or
B) maybe the use of -vaD takes over the object of the moH-ed verb?

> By the same pattern, one
> can say that *matlh nobmoH Qugh* means /Kruge causes (someone) to give
> Maltz (to someone)./ But I think it can ALSO mean /Kruge causes Maltz to
> give./

Well, the latter is definitely sure. I had a look at TKD again now, and 
it says "[moH] indicates that the subject is causing a change of condition"

The given example {tIjwI'ghom vIchenmoH} is translated as "I cause a 
boarding party to be formed".

literally translated that would be {chen ghom 'e' vI-[cause]}

a parallel to this is {matlh vInobmoH} "I cause maltz to give"

Exchanging the subject and adapting the suffixes gives
{matlh nobmoH Qugh} "Kruge makes maltz give"

Following my above mentioned twist, this is {nob matlh 'e' [cause] Qugh}

The object of the nob in that phrase comes first, so
{taj nob matlh 'e' [cause] Qugh}
and that's why I replaced the sentence back and got:
{taj matlh nobmoH Qugh}

And now, to marc the topic, I've added the -'e'
{taj'e' matlh nobmoH Qugh}

I still think that's a good workaround.

> Yes, this is the classic problem, and the way Okrand has resolved it is

Thanks for the explanation. Can you tell me wher to find examples for 
this (not nitpicking intended, I really wanna know and understand.)

> has been to (1) make the causer the subject, (2) make the causee the
> indirect object with *-vaD*, and (3) keep the thing acted upon as the
> direct object.
>
> Following Okrand's pattern, the sentence would be *matlhvaD nuq nobmoH
> Qugh.*

{matlhvaD lojmIt poSmoH Qugh.}
Does Kruge open the door for Maltz, (my interpretation)
or does Kruge cause Maltz to open the door? (your interpretation)  o_O

or can it be both and it's this ambiguity that lead this discussion?



-- 
Lieven L. Litaer
aka Quvar valer 'utlh
Grammarian of the KLI
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