[tlhIngan Hol] Thoughts on {-moH}

[mayqel qunenoS]

qurgh and SuStel, thank you for taking the time to explain all this !

..once more I came across an area of grammar, I was totally unaware of !
thank qeylIS for writing today's "the passing", during which I came across
this matter.

After reading your replies, I think I understand how this works;

the subject of the {-moH}ed verb causes the {-vaD}ed noun to do whatever
the verb says. the question however is "what prefix goes on the {-moH}ed
verb. and seemingly this is determined like this: the one who causes the
action is the subject, and whatever is before the {-moH}ed verb is the
object.

So, lets write some examples:

they caused us to see the cat
maHvaD vIghro' luleghmoH

they made you (plural) correct the student
tlhIHvaD ghojwI' lulughmoH

you (plural) made them touch the cat
chaHvaD vIghro' boHotmoH

we made you (plural) touch the cat
tlhIHvaD vIghro' wIHotmoH

we made you (plural) touch the cats
tlhIHvaD vIghro'mey DIHotmoH

are the above correct ?

qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'

On 6 Dec 2016 8:42 pm, "SuStel" <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:

> On 12/6/2016 1:16 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> there is something I noticed on {-moH}.
>
> If we use it on an intransitive verb it makes it transitive:
>
> jISaQ I cry
> qaSaQmoH I make you cry
>
> But what if we place it on a transitive ?
>
> jIchoH I change
> qachoH I change you
> qachoHmoH I cause you to change
>
> jIyuv I push
> qayuv I push you
> qayuvmoH I cause you to push
>
> I don't know how to describe it in grammar terms, but it seems that as
> soon as we place the {-moH} on a transitive verb, then the object can't "do
> what the verb says to someone or something else".
>
> If I write qayuvmoH for I make you push, then I may obviously be saying "I
> make you push", but how do I say "I make you push the table" ?
>
> raS qayuvmoH ? Is this correct ? can we have the {raS} just sitting there
> unmarked ?
>
>
> Shame on you for not paying attention!
>
> The current thinking, supported by a couple of canonical sentences, seems
> to be that your desired sentence would be: *SoHvaD raS vIyuvmoH.*
>
> My explanation for this is that one must do more than blindly follow
> syntax; one must examine the semantic role each noun is playing. There is
> an action, *yuv.* Someone pushes the table, *raS yuv.* I cause the table
> to be pushed, *raS vIyuvmoH* (doesn't say who pushes it; I cause the
> action so I'm the subject and it's done to the table so the table is the
> object). I cause you to push it, *SoHvaD raS vIyuvmoH;* you're the
> receiver of what I did (cause the pushing).
>
> We can play this game with other sentences:
>
> *quHDaj qaw **he*
> * remembers his heritage **quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj*
> * the sash reminds (someone) of his heritage **ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH
> Ha'quj** the sash reminds him of his heritage*
>
> *yIn Hegh je ghoj*
> * he learns life and death **yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH*
> * I teach life and death (to someone) **ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH** I
> teach him life and death*
>
> Guess what! Those are based on canon sentences:
>
> *tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH * *He wears it proudly as a
> reminder of his heritage. *(SkyBox S20)
>
> *petaQvam vIqopbej / QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH** I will bring
> this p'takh to justice / And teach him life and death*
>
> Now remember, and this is extremely important: this is perhaps the most
> controversial, war-causing, pain-inducing topic on this list *EVER.* Be
> very careful when talking about it. Think before you post.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/attachments/20161206/ad157c0a/attachment-0002.htm>