[tlhIngan Hol] How difficult is Klingon ?

mayqel qunenoS mihkoun at gmail.com
Mon Aug 15 08:45:11 PDT 2016 

Personal experience is by definition subjective.

But even then, in order for someone to be able to give a rating, that
person must be someone who learns and uses the language (in our case
klingon).

However people who only talk about klingon, and never talk while actually
using klingon, are unqualified to give a rating and even if they did, their
rating would be useless.

The pain scale example which you used, is wrong, non applicable, and non
comparable to the difficulty rating of a language.

If you want to discuss it, then start a thread and we will analyze this in
klingon.

Are you up to the challenge ?

qunnoq
ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta'

On 15 Aug 2016 6:31 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw at gmail.com> wrote:

> mayqel: Personal experience still involves guessing. What is the basis
> otherwise of a 70% score versus 71% or 69% or 30%? These are likely based
> on feelings of "Wow, that was hard!" (80%) or "That was easy!" (10%).
> Assigned specific numbers to feelings is like the hospital pain scale
> except that the pain scale is given with reference points (typical levels
> of pain and their respective amount of incapacitation) for each value, and
> you offered nothing like that.
>
> lay'tel SIvten
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:25 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> lay'tel SIvten
>> > All of the numbers are subjective, so how are
>> > they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
>>
>> Guessing if someone hasn't actually tried to learn the language, or
>> personal experience if someone learns and uses the language.
>>
>> qunnoq
>> ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta'
>>
>> On 15 Aug 2016 6:16 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing,
>>> I suppose.
>>>
>>> lay'tel SIvten
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 2:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it
>>>> depends". let me explain..
>>>>
>>>> if someone:
>>>>
>>>> 1. really wants to learn
>>>> 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done
>>>> 3. has help from experts
>>>>
>>>> then my rating would be:
>>>>
>>>> grammar 40/100
>>>> vocabulary 50/100
>>>> pronunciation I really can't decide
>>>> writting klingon 40/100
>>>> real time speaking 70/100
>>>>
>>>> however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to
>>>> have help from experts.
>>>>
>>>> the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had
>>>> help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the
>>>> world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it
>>>> because it's the truth).
>>>>
>>>> however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe
>>>> that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the
>>>> fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong.
>>>>
>>>> finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I
>>>> will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order
>>>> to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for
>>>> 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day.
>>>>
>>>> but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely
>>>> worth it !
>>>>
>>>> qunnoq
>>>> Sent from my goat phone
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience,
>>>>> except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with
>>>>> a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's
>>>>> because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that
>>>>> includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a
>>>>> touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or
>>>>> generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now
>>>>> reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started.
>>>>> Also, it's a good read!
>>>>>
>>>>> ~mIp'av
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher.
>>>>> Maybe 20.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be
>>>>> classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a
>>>>> great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a
>>>>> typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish,
>>>>> Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary
>>>>> is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of
>>>>> the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical
>>>>> structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different
>>>>> and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things
>>>>> (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You
>>>>> also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say
>>>>> the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and
>>>>> there small vocabulary.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a
>>>>> relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy
>>>>> then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually
>>>>> don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The
>>>>> syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all
>>>>> the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be
>>>>> exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really
>>>>> is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort,
>>>>> sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion
>>>>> or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest
>>>>> advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really
>>>>> learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a
>>>>> good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert
>>>>> already.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages
>>>>> are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more
>>>>> difficult.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Just my 2 Darseks.
>>>>> > - André
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I want to ask you this:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
>>>>> hell), how would you rate it ?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> qunnoq
>>>>> >> Sent from my goat phone
>>>>> >>
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