# [tlhIngan Hol] Saruman and Lurtz

mayqel qunenoS mihkoun at gmail.com
Wed Aug 24 08:18:14 PDT 2016

```Reading again the two sentences I posted, I came to realize this :

The event described by the {-pu'} needs to have

1. a beginning
2. an end

The fact that it has ended, doesn't necessarily mean that it has stopped
being in effect.

Example:

The cat fell in the paint and became blue.

This is an event which has a beginning, an end, and its effect continues
beyond the end of the event (the "fall" ended) however the cat continues to
be blue.

So, if we reconsider the elf-orc examples, perhaps we could comment the
following.

wa'Hu' elf ghaHpu'.

This must mean that during yesterday "his being an elf" was completed.
Today, perhaps he is still an elf, or he became an orc. We don't know. The
sentence only talks about the completion of an event, which completion
occured yesterday.

However the question arises:

Yesterday he is an elf. This reality was completed yesterday. But when did
it start ? This is THE question.

The way I understand the {-pu'} so far, the perfective specifies only the
fact that the action was completed ; its job isn't to provide information
with regards to "when the action actually begun".

Yesterday his "being an elf" came to completion. Perhaps the process which
led to his "becoming an elf" started yesterday, perhaps it started a
thousand years ago. We don't know and we can't tell that from the {-pu'}
alone, simply because that's not its job.

For the time being, this summarizes my understanding of the perfective
{-pu'}.

qunnoq
ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta'

On 24 Aug 2016 5:55 p.m., "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> Searching the web desperate for answers, I realized that our problem
> here isn't the {-ta'} {-taH} or {-lI'}. It is focused on the {-pu'}.
>
> So, after some digging I found these two sentences which concern the
> use of {-pu'}.
>
>
> 1. Perfective aspect is used in referring to an event conceived as
> bounded and unitary, without reference to any flow of time during ("I
> helped him")
>
> 2. The perfect aspect indicates that the end of the action is known
> and is used to emphasize the fact that the action is complete.
>
> Now, I want to ask you:
>
> 1. Do you agree with the above ?
>
> 2. If you do agree, then how would you define an event as being
> "bounded and unitary" ?
>
> DaH, logh DaqvamDaq ratlh buq'IrwIj 'ej jabbI'IDlIj pIH.
>
> qunnoq
>
> ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta'
>
> On 24 Aug 2016 1:48 p.m., "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Searching the web desperate for answers, I realized that our problem
>> here isn't the {-ta'} {-taH} or {-lI'}. It is focused on the {-pu'}.
>>
>> So, after some digging I found these two sentences which concern the
>> use of {-pu'}.
>>
>>
>> 1. Perfective aspect is used in referring to an event conceived as
>> bounded and unitary, without reference to any flow of time during ("I
>> helped him")
>>
>> 2. The perfect aspect indicates that the end of the action is known
>> and is used to emphasize the fact that the action is complete.
>>
>> Now, I want to ask you:
>>
>> 1. Do you agree with the above ?
>>
>> 2. If you do agree, then how would you define an event as being
>> "bounded and unitary" ?
>>
>> DaH, logh DaqvamDaq ratlh buq'IrwIj 'ej jabbI'IDlIj pIH.
>>
>> qunnoq
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:54 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > SuStel:
>> >> No, it needs to be completed by the action to which the verb the
>> suffix is attached to
>> >> refers. If that very verb doesn't describe the completion of the
>> action, then the completion
>> >> suffix isn't appropriate.
>> >
>> > I didn't understand a word of this..
>> >
>> > jIH:
>> >> the event, which is described by the aspect suffix {-pu'} must :
>> >> 1. be completed
>> >> 2. have stopped being in effect
>> > SuStel:
>> >> No
>> >
>> > I studied the elf-orc examples, and I can't understand why the two
>> > conditions I described aren't correct/applicable.
>> >
>> > I don't know.. this is rather confusing. And I wonder ; even you and
>> > lieven couldn't agree on this whole "aspect matter".. And you're both
>> > grammarians/experts !
>> >
>> > So, what hope is there for a simple guy to figure this out ?
>> >
>> > Normally, I would throw the towel and follow in the footsteps of our
>> > good captain. However, because I'm a capricorn I can't quit !
>> >
>> > So, this is how this will go down.. I will study on the internet about
>> > aspect in general, and after I finish I will write my conclusions.
>> > Then, we'll take it from there..
>> >
>> > toQDujlIj ghomqa'DI' buq'IrwIj, Ser wIchav. 'e' vItul..
>> >
>> > qunnoq
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 9:21 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> maj SuStel !
>> >>
>> >> wa'leS, mu'meylIj vIpoj ! DaH, whisky vItlhutlhta'mo' 'ej jIDoy'mo',
>> >> jIQongnIS ! murIt QongDaqwIj..
>> >>
>> >> jIQongtaHvIS, nIyma'pu' vIleghbe'. 'e' vItul !
>> >>
>> >> qunnoq
>> >> ghogh HablI'vo aah who cares..
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 23 Aug 2016 8:35 p.m., "SuStel" <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 8/23/2016 11:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> SuStel:
>> >>>
>> >>> That's your error. During the "once," they were still
>> >>> elves. When it was "once," being elves wasn't completed.
>> >>>
>> >>> hmm.. Perhaps I'm beginning to understand. So you're saying that the
>> >>> event, which is described by the aspect suffix {-pu'} must :
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. be completed
>> >>> 2. have stopped being in effect
>> >>>
>> >>> right ?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> No, it needs to be completed by the action to which the verb the
>> suffix is
>> >>> attached to refers. If that very verb doesn't describe the completion
>> of the
>> >>> action, then the completion suffix isn't appropriate.
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose I was an elf yesterday and I'm an orc today.
>> >>>
>> >>> wa'Hu' elf jIH
>> >>> I was an elf yesterday.
>> >>> During yesterday, I was being an elf. I didn't complete being an elf
>> >>> during yesterday. I completed being an elf after yesterday, but I
>> didn't say
>> >>> DorDI' wa'Hu', I said wa'Hu'. So being an elf was completed, but it
>> wasn't
>> >>> completed during yesterday.
>> >>>
>> >>> wa'Hu' elf jIHpu'
>> >>> I was (and completed being) an elf yesterday.
>> >>> During yesterday, I was and elf and then my being an elf was
>> complete. I
>> >>> stopped being an elf during yesterday, though I had been one before
>> that.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> SuStel
>> >>> http://trimboli.name
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> >>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
>> >>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>
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