[tlhIngan Hol] Saruman and Lurtz

mayqel qunenoS mihkoun at gmail.com
Wed Aug 24 07:55:15 PDT 2016


Searching the web desperate for answers, I realized that our problem
here isn't the {-ta'} {-taH} or {-lI'}. It is focused on the {-pu'}.

So, after some digging I found these two sentences which concern the
use of {-pu'}.

SuStel tIlaD:

1. Perfective aspect is used in referring to an event conceived as
bounded and unitary, without reference to any flow of time during ("I
helped him")

2. The perfect aspect indicates that the end of the action is known
and is used to emphasize the fact that the action is complete.

Now, I want to ask you:

1. Do you agree with the above ?

2. If you do agree, then how would you define an event as being
"bounded and unitary" ?

DaH, logh DaqvamDaq ratlh buq'IrwIj 'ej jabbI'IDlIj pIH.

qunnoq

ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta'

On 24 Aug 2016 1:48 p.m., "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> Searching the web desperate for answers, I realized that our problem
> here isn't the {-ta'} {-taH} or {-lI'}. It is focused on the {-pu'}.
>
> So, after some digging I found these two sentences which concern the
> use of {-pu'}.
>
> SuStel tIlaD:
>
> 1. Perfective aspect is used in referring to an event conceived as
> bounded and unitary, without reference to any flow of time during ("I
> helped him")
>
> 2. The perfect aspect indicates that the end of the action is known
> and is used to emphasize the fact that the action is complete.
>
> Now, I want to ask you:
>
> 1. Do you agree with the above ?
>
> 2. If you do agree, then how would you define an event as being
> "bounded and unitary" ?
>
> DaH, logh DaqvamDaq ratlh buq'IrwIj 'ej jabbI'IDlIj pIH.
>
> qunnoq
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:54 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
> > SuStel:
> >> No, it needs to be completed by the action to which the verb the suffix
> is attached to
> >> refers. If that very verb doesn't describe the completion of the
> action, then the completion
> >> suffix isn't appropriate.
> >
> > I didn't understand a word of this..
> >
> > jIH:
> >> the event, which is described by the aspect suffix {-pu'} must :
> >> 1. be completed
> >> 2. have stopped being in effect
> > SuStel:
> >> No
> >
> > I studied the elf-orc examples, and I can't understand why the two
> > conditions I described aren't correct/applicable.
> >
> > I don't know.. this is rather confusing. And I wonder ; even you and
> > lieven couldn't agree on this whole "aspect matter".. And you're both
> > grammarians/experts !
> >
> > So, what hope is there for a simple guy to figure this out ?
> >
> > Normally, I would throw the towel and follow in the footsteps of our
> > good captain. However, because I'm a capricorn I can't quit !
> >
> > So, this is how this will go down.. I will study on the internet about
> > aspect in general, and after I finish I will write my conclusions.
> > Then, we'll take it from there..
> >
> > toQDujlIj ghomqa'DI' buq'IrwIj, Ser wIchav. 'e' vItul..
> >
> > qunnoq
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 9:21 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> maj SuStel !
> >>
> >> wa'leS, mu'meylIj vIpoj ! DaH, whisky vItlhutlhta'mo' 'ej jIDoy'mo',
> >> jIQongnIS ! murIt QongDaqwIj..
> >>
> >> jIQongtaHvIS, nIyma'pu' vIleghbe'. 'e' vItul !
> >>
> >> qunnoq
> >> ghogh HablI'vo aah who cares..
> >>
> >>
> >> On 23 Aug 2016 8:35 p.m., "SuStel" <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/23/2016 11:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> >>>
> >>> SuStel:
> >>>
> >>> That's your error. During the "once," they were still
> >>> elves. When it was "once," being elves wasn't completed.
> >>>
> >>> hmm.. Perhaps I'm beginning to understand. So you're saying that the
> >>> event, which is described by the aspect suffix {-pu'} must :
> >>>
> >>> 1. be completed
> >>> 2. have stopped being in effect
> >>>
> >>> right ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No, it needs to be completed by the action to which the verb the
> suffix is
> >>> attached to refers. If that very verb doesn't describe the completion
> of the
> >>> action, then the completion suffix isn't appropriate.
> >>>
> >>> Suppose I was an elf yesterday and I'm an orc today.
> >>>
> >>> wa'Hu' elf jIH
> >>> I was an elf yesterday.
> >>> During yesterday, I was being an elf. I didn't complete being an elf
> >>> during yesterday. I completed being an elf after yesterday, but I
> didn't say
> >>> DorDI' wa'Hu', I said wa'Hu'. So being an elf was completed, but it
> wasn't
> >>> completed during yesterday.
> >>>
> >>> wa'Hu' elf jIHpu'
> >>> I was (and completed being) an elf yesterday.
> >>> During yesterday, I was and elf and then my being an elf was complete.
> I
> >>> stopped being an elf during yesterday, though I had been one before
> that.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> SuStel
> >>> http://trimboli.name
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> >>> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
> >>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
> >>>
> >>
>
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